• Sarah wrote a new post, The More Men Hate on a Woman, The More I’ll Probably Love Her, on the site Skepchick 5 years, 5 months ago

    ThumbnailMen hating on famous women is a pastime as old as fame itself. From the vilification of Eve (as if Adam didn’t eat the apple of his own free will) to Annie Oakley (“When a man hits a target, they call him a […]

    • ” I want to remind you that I’m not saying any of them are perfect.”
      I’m pretty sure you once dumped your chewed gum on the sidewalk, therefore you’re wrong. You also deserve…*
      Seriously, whatever offense those women have committed, it usually stands in no comparison to the reaction they’re getting.

      *chocolate, I think

    • Yessss. It took me an embarrassingly long time to realize that one of the most feminist acts we can do on a daily basis is not be shitty to other women.

    • So much criticism of women is about their appearance or what type of guys they date or “do you have to be so shrill in your criticism of pop culture?”

      And of course, American culture in general promotes narcissism, among other negative qualities.

    • Yeah.

      It is OK to not like someone, or not be interested in what someone is doing. Of course the next logical, rational, and most importantly ADULT thing to do is to avoid and ignore them. I don’t have any interest in the celebrities listed here, so I don’t consume whatever products it is that they’re selling. To my knowledge, none of them have done or said anything particularly harmful to humanity or even any individuals, so I don’t have to think about them on that level either. None of them are Jenny McCarthy after all.

      There’s lots of celebrity white men who have done seriously bad things and no one seems to care… so misogyny and racism seem like obvious components of certain types of celebrity hate. Charlie Sheen, Mel Gibson, Adam Carolla, Chris Brown, Sean Penn, on and on and on.

    • I like your 3 points of advise.

      Regarding famous people – do you think there is any validity in the Oscar Wilde quote of “The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about.” i.e. that some (not all obviously) are ‘playing the media’.

    • I still don’t like Anne Coulter because she is demonstrably wrong about just about everything she says, and I still don’t like Sarah Palin because she is incurious and vacuous but wishes to represent me.

      But here’s the secret.
      Disliking a woman is not misogyny, disliking someone because they are a woman is misogyny.

      The ways that I’ve noticed women being attacked is specific too. It always seems to be about their looks or perceived femininity or lack there of, or else it’s about policing their sexuality, or assuming they are less capable because they are women. I found myself falling into it recently regarding Jennifer Lawrence. It’s insidious. It means I need to try harder.

      P.S. – I almost included my standard snarky comment about Sarah Palin, calling her Caribou Barbie, but then I realized that I need to stop that because even though it implies her lack of curiosity and dim-bulbedness it also implies that these things stem from her looks. So that particular barb will not be used by me any more.

      One step at a time. One step at a time.

    • This phenomenon needs a name, a la “The Streisand Effect”.

    • Oops, pre-coffee reading comprehension fail…

    • “The More Men Hate on a Woman, The More I’ll Probably Love Her” This only shows your bias against men, and possible hatred. Annie Oakley on the other hand. What do you mean by (“When a man hits a target, they call him a marksman. When I hit a target, they call it a trick. Never did like that much.*”)? I looked on Wiki and on her page the only time trick was used, is “Oakley’s most famous trick was her ability to repeatedly split a playing card, edge-on, and put several more holes in it before it could touch the ground. via wiki”. I’m also sure you wouldn’t want her as an example, Annie wanted to go to WWII, I’m sure that if we had it Annie’s way women would also have to register for the draft as well. Just to get the right to vote, drive, and go to college. Also Kim Kardashian? you do know how she got famous right? and no it was not the porn she did. Her dad was the attorney for OJ Simpson… Do you really want a woman that started her fame from a man, be one of your examples? Judging by the title of this article.

      • Given this quote:

        “Judging by the title of this article.”

        I’ll assume you only read the title and the 1st paragraph. Did you even read the footnote about the Oakley quote?

        Uh, if we’re going to have a draft (and not the meaningless “Men have to register, but we haven’t actually drafted anyone since the last week of 1972” situation, then absolutely we should draft women as well as men. Or, better, no one. (Disclaimer: I was due to be drafted in January 1973, even had my pre-induction physical in December 1972, in the midst of the Christmas bombing, but Nixon decided to end the draft as a sop to middle-America, who were sick of getting their kids back in body bags.)

        You seem to think the goal of feminism is to receive all the privileges of men and none of the responsibilities. You’re doing it wrong.

        The fact that Kim Kardashian has (most likely) unearned celebrity is kind of the point. The hate (and criticism not based on their words and deeds) directed at famous women, whether their fame is earned as a result of hard work and talent, or just because they are famous for being famous, only makes sense in the context of misogyny. Read the rest of the post, please.

      • Annie Oakley was not a support of the women’s suffrage movement.

        And why do you speak as if all of us here would obviously be opposed to conscripting women?

    • “I assume that all criticism of women is rooted in misogyny. ”

      So if a woman critiques another woman, do you assume she’s being a misogynist?

      • Yes. Sort of.

        P.S. If you are a woman, you can assume what you will. If you are a skeptic, you will except evidence to the contrary and override your default assumption.

        Several points you gloss over, in what can only be an attempt to score points without have actually read the post: 1) Assuming something is a default. You should always change your mind if there is compelling evidence to the contrary. Sarah says exactly that later:

        “I operate under the assumption that all criticism of famous women are rooted in misogyny until I find conclusive evidence otherwise.”

        2) Saying something someone says “is rooted in misogyny” is not the same thing as saying “the person is a misogynist”. They could be repeating something someone else (who may be a misogynist) said without fully understanding the assumptions or implications of what they are saying, or they could be repeating a cultural meme rooted in misogyny. There is a difference between what people do and what people are. Decent people, when they do something that harms others and then discover or are told why it was harmful, attempt to apologize and modify their future behavior to avoid doing it again. Misogynists (and racists and other bigots and bullies), not so much. They already understand and are doing it on purpose.

    • Try as I might to understand the reasoning, I simply can’t agree with assuming all hate directed to certain famous women is the result of misogyny. Obviously some may be, but I wouldn’t treat it as the initial hypothesis.

      I simply don’t like Kim Kardashian, Kanye West or Nicky Minaj. We wouldn’t work on the assumption that all hate directed towards famous men is the result of sexism, and given that presumably at least some of it isn’t, it’s also possible that some of the hate directed at certain women isn’t the result of sexism.

      (A recent instance of what I saw as sexism was the treatment of celebrity nude leaks involving Jennifer Lawrence, with people being outraged (even comedians like Patton Oswalt and Seth Rogen speaking against it) when in the past, Kim Kardashian, Paris Hilton et al were made fun of on late night television and called sluts. I imagine because Lawrence is a ‘good girl’, America’s sweetheart, while Kardashian is a worthless slut – the traditional virgin/whore dichotomy.)